[MujahidEEn_89]

Salam... saudara imakubex, saya nak tanya pasal kelima-lima konsep pemerintahan seperti tajuk yg saya kemukakan. kalau ada lagi sistem pemerintahan yg lain, sila nyatakan sila kupas dgn ilmiah berlandaskan al-quran dan as-sunnah tq wallahu a'lam

[Mugi]

It's great that you're really interested in getting more information, but wouldn't it be better if you just google it, read through it, and then ask imakubex about stuff that you don't understand? As opposed to having him explain everything to you one by one. That's why we have google, brah.

[imakubex]

Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, I agree with Mugi. It's no use me dictating what those concepts mean if you don't have any background knowledge, since the concepts related to all of them are varied. What is more, I cannot help but suspect that there is an ulterior motive here. You will have to forgive me for this, but from experience, anytime there's the word 'khilafah' in this forum, there's always the bashing of democracy etc. etc. I always have this rule: I do not enter into a discussion with people who do not want to search for the truth, but only to affirm their preconceptions. I try to do that, so I expect similar courtesy from anyone else. All these concepts are not mutually exclusive to each other, mind you. And btw, capitalism is not a a governing system. I can explain what they mean, but if you want a proper 'Islamic' treatment, I am afraid you would probably be better off with a learned Islamic scholar. Wallahua'lam

[MujahidEEn_89]

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imakubex wrote: Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, I agree with Mugi. It's no use me dictating what those concepts mean if you don't have any background knowledge, since the concepts related to all of them are varied. What is more, I cannot help but suspect that there is an ulterior motive here. You will have to forgive me for this, but from experience, anytime there's the word 'khilafah' in this forum, there's always the bashing of democracy etc. etc. I always have this rule: I do not enter into a discussion with people who do not want to search for the truth, but only to affirm their preconceptions. I try to do that, so I expect similar courtesy from anyone else. All these concepts are not mutually exclusive to each other, mind you. And btw, capitalism is not a a governing system. I can explain what they mean, but if you want a proper 'Islamic' treatment, I am afraid you would probably be better off with a learned Islamic scholar. Wallahua'lam

i'm asking your opinion based on the quran and sunnah. Why when we mention democracy and khilafah, everybody will be frightened? fear Allah or fear the law that made by human being? that's why i'm asking your opinion based on al-Quran and as-sunnah, since akhi imran told us that u have lot of experience and knowledge. writing in english does not show we have lot of knowledge. al-quran and as-sunnah are our hujjah. obey Allah's command, and follow the Rasulullah's path. indeed, the success is only in religion (Islam).

[imakubex]

Bismillahirrahmanirrahim,

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MujahidEEn_89 wrote: i'm asking your opinion based on the quran and sunnah. Why when we mention democracy and khilafah, everybody will be frightened? fear Allah or fear the law that made by human being? that's why i'm asking your opinion based on al-Quran and as-sunnah, since akhi imran told us that u have lot of experience and knowledge. writing in english does not show we have lot of knowledge. al-quran and as-sunnah are our hujjah. obey Allah's command, and follow the Rasulullah's path. indeed, the success is only in religion (Islam).

Firstly, I don't understand this business of writing in English. It has no bearing in this discussion. If anything, it's only a preconception. I don't think people are frightened, rather, they are apprehensive. Why? I am not sure. Anyway, I think there is a problem in that in order to understand something, you will need to see the original literature, not just to trust people who disagree with that something or any other third party. Only after that should we look at whether or not it is in accordance to our religion, according to our understanding. And by the way, I am interested in this sentence: 'fear Allah or fear the law that made by human being'. God and the law certainly cannot be compared, and there is no law in our country that actually goes against discussing democracy or capitalism etc. I personally think that all of elements of all of these concepts could be found in Islam, but that is mostly based on derived knowledge from what I learned from other people. So for me to comment 'based on the Quran and the Sunnah' is a bit inappropriate, as I am not a scholar, regardless of what Im Koyube said. What he said is essentially his opinion, which I myself do not necessarily share. There is sufficient literature on the subject matter, especially those written by the scholars from PAS. I suggest that you read them first. I hope you bear in mind the rule that I put forth, and perhaps you can put forth your understanding of those concepts and then we can discuss. If I were to reply to your original question, I would need hours and hours of laborious work studying 10 or more books about Islam and governance while you wait with a certain preconception of what all these concepts are and perhaps even who I am. I think the asymmetry is not something that I can live with. Again, my suggestion: You can put forth your understanding of those concepts and then we can discuss. And I apologize for sounding harsh. But I cannot shake that prejudice and quite frankly, it does seem like an excessive amount of work for me to do alone (as I do not memorise everything that I read, and the last time I read anything about democracy is more than 3 months ago) and it is easiest for you to read it up first before discussing. After all, you can't talk about a car if you have no knowledge on it, no? And what more if the only knowledge that you have is from a motorcycle mechanic who hates cars, no? Wallahua'lam

[MujahidEEn_89]

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Leokid wrote:

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imakubex wrote: I don't think people are frightened, rather, they are apprehensive.

Well, i think people are apprehensive when there's HT involved in the discussion. Ahaha. Take HT out of the scene, and I believe we can have a knowledgeable and peaceful discussion about democracy. Just my 2 cents of thoughts, though. Based on a lot of observation. =)

what? Hizbut Tahrir? oh come on... this is not the matter of Hizbut Tahrir. This is the matter of ummah. Furthermore, i am not a member of Hizbut Tahrir yet. and i think you are joking... peaceful discussion? i didn't see a peaceful discussion between pro-democazy parties such as BN and PAS in the parliament only prejudice people said that why. when people wants to perform the sunnah, it's normal that people will 'attack' us. this situation also happened to the Karkun just give your opinion about what i've wrote just want to see other's opinion wheter their opinions are motivated with corrupted minds or according to the al-Quran and as-Sunnah

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imakubex wrote After all, you can't talk about a car if you have no knowledge on it, no? And what more if the only knowledge that you have is from a motorcycle mechanic who hates cars, no? Wallahua'lam

of course i have the knowledge about democrazy. go and find in the quran, wheter Allah allows us to use democrazy, capitalism, sosialism, komunism, or not

[imakubex]

Bismillahirramanirrahim, With regards to HT, I will not comment further. Peaceful discussions are possible, provided that there is such a thing as civility in the people who are discussing. For one, it is not possible to have a civic discussion when one party refuses to follow the Constitution, which is part of the rule of the game. The argument of 'the Constitution is not drawn from the Quran and the Sunnah' is invalid in this case because that statement assumes that civic discussion can only happen in an Islamic framework, and therefore, non Muslims cannot be civic which is clearly false. Just because you have not seen any peaceful discussion between members of PAS and UMNO it does not mean that it is not possible. Look at other developed countries and see how they deal with things. To see things only in the Malaysian context is a bit misleading. If we are to take that sample, then public transportation is not a viable option to overcrowded cities because it does not work in Malaysia. Is that logical?

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of course i have the knowledge about democrazy. go and find in the quran, wheter Allah allows us to use democrazy, capitalism, sosialism, komunism, or not

This is exactly what I was talking about. Why don't you talk about what you know, and we can discuss? The very word that you used almost affirmed my preconception - there was an ulterior motive. And try to find in the Quran whether or not Allah allows us to use cars, or bicycles, or use shoes, or computers, or any other modern convenience for that matter. And try to find if there is an explicit prohibition in the Quran against democracy. Mind the wording, explicit. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I read anything in the Quran that explicitly talks about a specific way to govern. Or can you enlighten me? And please mind the wording, I did say 'explicit'. Wallahua'lam

[MujahidEEn_89]

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And try to find in the Quran whether or not Allah allows us to use cars, or bicycles, or use shoes, or computers, or any other modern convenience for that matter. And try to find if there is an explicit prohibition in the Quran against democracy. Mind the wording, explicit. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I read anything in the Quran that explicitly talks about a specific way to govern. Or can you enlighten me?

untuk menjawab soalan-soalan saudara, ada baiknya saya menjawab dalam BM sahaja. BI saya tidak sebaik BI saudara. ok, memang Allah SWT tidak pernah menyatakan tentang kereta, kasut, basikal, dan sebagainya. kita boleh ikut semua itu kerana itu adalah berkaitan dengan MADANIYAH. di mana madaniyah adalah teknologi. satu lagi adalah HADHARAH. hadharah adalah berkaitan dengan aqidah madaniyah itu tiada kaitan dengan aqidah. jadi, kita boleh guna pakai. tak kira laptop, kereta, atau apa saja. sedangkan hadharah bersangkutan dengan aqidah. segalanya telah diterangkan di dalam al-quran termasuk keharaman mengguna-pakai manhaj orang kafir dalam berpolitik. mari kita lihat keterangan Allah. "...hanya Allah jualah yang menetapkan hukum; Ia menerangkan kebenaran, dan Dia lah sebaik-baik yang memberi keputusan" [al-An'aam:57] "Sesudah itu, patutkah mereka berkehendak lagi kepada hukum-hukum jahiliyah? Padahal - kepada orang-orang yang penuh keyakinan - tidak ada sesiapa yang boleh membuat hukum yang lebih pada daripada Allah" [al-Maaidah:50] "dan sesiapa yang tidak menghukum dengan apa yang telah diturunkan oleh Allah (kerana mengingkarinya), maka mereka itulah orang-orang kafir" [al-Maaidah:44] "dan sesiapa yang tidak menghukum dengan apa yang telah diturunkan oleh Allah, maka mereka itulah orang-orang yang fasik" [al-Maaidah:47]

[imakubex]

Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, I did tell you to mind the words. I did say 'explicitly'. Mind the wording, there is a reason why I put it there. And btw, who made this distinction between hadharah and madaniah? And who decides what falls into which category? Wallahua'lam

[Demokrasi]

Demokrasi juga berasal daripada kapitalis....nilai di dalam kapitalis adalah materialistik semata2...sosialis juga sama...nilai di dalam sosialis juga adalah materialistik...walaupon ideologi berbeza,tetapi,nilai mereka tetap sama... Madaniah adalah teknologi... Hadharah adalah peradaban...hadharah adalah berkaitan dengan aqidah... ok,saya bagi contoh disini... apakah hukum asal bagi kayu??hukum asal bagi kayu adalah harus dan boleh kita guna pakai..tetapi,jika kita menggunakan kayu itu membuat lambang salib,maka,ianya menjadi haram kerana terdapat hadharah di dalamnya... lambang salib merupakan syariat bagi agama Kristian... sama juga dengan hari perayaan.. hadis Rasulullah SAW ada menyebut lebih kurang begini,ada dua perayaan yang Allah redhai iaitu Aidil Fitri dan Aidil Adha...lebih kurang gitu lah...siapa yang boleh nyatakan hadis ini dengan lebih jelas lagi adalah sangat2 dihargai....saya budak baru belajar... dengan hadis diatas,maka,kedua-dua perayaan tersebut adalah syariat islam dan mempunyai hadharah di dalamnya.... sama juga dengan agama2 lain...mereka juga ada hari suci mereka contohnya Hari Raya Krismas..Hari Raya Krismas ini adalah hari suci bagi orang Kristian...dan,Hari Raya Krismas ini terdapat hadharah di dalamnya... Jadi,haramlah kita membuat kongsi raya seperti "DepaRaya" kerana ianya berkaitan dengan aqidah... Depavalli + Hari Raya Aidil Fitri = perayaan kufur + perayaan islam Depavalli adalah syariat bagi agama hindu... Hari Raya Aidil Fitri adalah syariat bagi agama islam... jadi,perayaan kufur + perayaan islam.... sepertimana sedia maklum bahawa islam tidak boleh dicampur adukkan dengan agama lain....dan,islam juga tidak boleh dicampur adukkan dengan kekufuran... Ada sesetangah umat islam yang berpendapat bahawa,dengan adanya kongsiraya ini,kita juga boleh berdakwah kepada mereka dan mengeratkan ukhuwah dengan mereka... Persoalan?? Kenapa perlu kita jumpa mereka atau ziarah mereka sewaktu hari raya mereka??kenapa tidak hari lain???Nampak sangat kita memang "meraikan" sambutan agama tu..Kalau betul untuk dakwah, masa jumpa orang kafir tu ada cakap tak yang agama mereka salah dan sesat??persoalan lain,menjalinkan ukhuwah dengan orang kafir??Tuhan mana dan Nabi mana ajar buat macam tu?? Ukhuwah hanya untuk muslim,bukan dengan kafir..

[imakubex]

Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, I was expecting something like this. Before I respond properly, I will say that liberal democracy comes from the liberal tradition, which might or might not support capitalism, depending on what definition of freedom you subscribe to. To say socialism and democracy are the same is missing the point, really. The basis of both are quite different, so are the scope. For one, socialism is in what we call the 'left' in the political spectrum, and it advocates higher government intervention. I think in theory, some parts of socialism can work in a democracy, though the totalitarian approach such as that in Russia and China might not be compatible with the ideals of democracy. Their ideologies are much more complicated than your binary way of thinking about them, I'm afraid. Now, I have not said anywhere that I support liberal democracy as it is practised nowadays. But I am also apprehensive of talking to people who do not want to learn, which is the reason for the curt replies that I have given. With regards to Madaniah and Hadharah, the problem is that it is always easy to illustrate something if we take the most obvious cases. But in cases where it is not so obvious, then the classification might break down into greyer areas as opposed to black and white. For example, the Church is based on Roman Basilicas as they were converted from basilicas into churches in the early stages of the adoption of Christianity by the Romans. They used the Roman arches and other Madaniah and turned them into objects which has spiritual meanings in their religion. In fact, the dome was used in the Pantheon and the Hagia Sophia and therefore has a spiritual dimension to it. But the Muslims took the shape of the dome and used it for mosques later on. It is certainly Madaniah, then, but it can be argued that the basis is Hadharah. So the Muslims took the more useful parts of the architecture and then disregarded the philosophical underpinnings behind it. I do think that the same can be said about governing systems. If you want to be strict, the idea of the bureaucracy and system that the Byzantines and the Persians heavily influenced the Muslim, and both of them are based on the idea that the Emperor is chosen by God, something like the idea of the Son of Heaven in China. So then the structure had significant spiritual dimensions to it, so why did the Muslims take lessons from them? The same is true for liberal democracy. It might not be based on Islamic ideas, but some parts of it can be used. The same is also true for the other concepts, the only question is what parts to exclude and to include. To do that, one needs to read the literature properly and not just rely on soundbites like democrazy before deciding what the philosophical underpinnings are and what institutions and method might be employed to make that idea a reality. The former is proactive and progressive while the latter is just plain lazy, in my view. And there is the issue of practicality. What counts as practical and feasible and what does not. Critiques are great and all, but the solution might not work at all. Marx's criticism of capitalism was a prime example of this. He thought that classical economics was not good, but his solution to that led to the massacre of thousands under Stalin. Keynes, however, thought that classical economics failed and then radically transformed the way economics are done forever. So it is not entirely clear which method works best before you tried it, and to do that one will have to dabble in the dirt, so to speak. The challenge to those who disagree with any system is always whether or not their system could actually work, and work better in contrast to the old system. Any amount of rhetoric is useless otherwise. And owh, by the way, the birth liberal democracy was not overnight, there is a reason why things are the way things are. Perhaps we all should read more on the subject matter before deciding anything. Wallahua'lam

[abu ghazi]

Terima kasih. Kini saya faham akan nasihat yang diberikan oleh rakan saya... Biarkan si luncai terjun dengan labu-labunya. Wassalam...

[anyzen]

Owh? Habis hujahkah?

[abu ghazi]

Assalamualaikum, bukan begitu... Saya tetap akan memberikan respon, tetapi bukan di sini. Sebaliknya akan dimuatkan dalam blog saya dalam masa terdekat ini, insya Allah. Kalau saudara/i sudi berkunjung ke blog saya dan membaca respon saya, sila PM kepada saya. Insya Allah saya akan maklumkan selepas saya siap memberikan respon. Mengapa saya berbuat demikian? Biarlah rahsia... Saya percaya barisan moderator tahu sebabnya... Wassalam. p.s. Tapi bukan sebab saya merajuk ya... I Luv Islam memang bermanfaat. Saya akan tetap berkunjung di sini, melainkan jika ada pihak yang tidak senang dengan kehadiran saya. Kalau begitu, tak dapeklah den nak nolong eh. Saya akan mengundurkan diri secara terhormat. Senyum

[ald kamil]

nk tanya sdr iamkubex skit. macam mana untuk kita ubah sistem pemerintahan di sesebuah negara. ambik Malaysia sebagai contoh. apa yg diperlukan supaya sistem pemerintahan dapat diubah? adakah ia dapat diubah oleh pemimpin ataupun rakyat sendiri. mohon penjelasan.*help*